heather and everyone else, hiya popkids. i think i've mentioned before on this list that youth movements fascinate me (or maybe i haven't i forget). so of course i'm responding to heather's thoughts for the day. i think something we need to decide before we discuss this any further is this: is 'pop,' as heather called it, a 'movement'? it certainly is *not* a movement, i think, in the same way the mods, the rockers, the punks, the teddy boys and even the ravers were movements...all of those youth groups were rebelling against something, be it politcal circumstances or just their parents' values. which brings up the next necessity of this discussion: let's define 'pop'. i assume heather meant 'indiepop' when she wrote that, but these days there are so many classifications and so many genres and even the same words mean different things depending on which country you're in (like the word 'indie, ' for example). now, if we're talking about indie rawk kids in america, then i guess we can say they are rebelling against corporate music, and in turn rebelling against the mainstream. but indie kids in britain are entirely different kinds of fuzzy sweater wearers, now aren't they? a lot of 'indie' bands in britain are signed to big corporate labels, so in what way are indie kids in britain part of any kind of movement? the thing is, to me it seems that kids these days don't have much to rebel against, and therefore the 'movements' (if you can call them that) that they 'subscribe' to don't tend to 'embody' their whole lives or styles or lifestyles. when you were a mod you were a MOD, it's who you were and it was what you were about. in my experience, indie rawk kids half the time don't even want to admit that they belong to any kind of subculture, cos they are too busy denying its existance at all, too busy being 'innovative individuals.' ooh, better stop...i feel i'm about to get snippy. but yes, here's my question: do we think these movements exist at all anymore, or even have any reason to? i think these subcultures exist, but the things that motivate them, if there even are any motivations, are completely different than the motivations of the groups are parents belonged to. *sigh* okay, enough from me... cheers, stasia ------------- Original Text

From "Heather Marie Propes" <asbuch@midway.uchicago.edu>, on 12/4/98 1:00 PM: I like Belle and Sebastian a lot, and I like "pop" a lot. It's a witty, funny, and romantic musical genre.

Yet, just reading around the list and learning more about this movement, I am amazed at how contrary it seems to any youth movemnt I have ever known. My dad is a collector of 1950's American rock 'n' roll. With over 30,000 records and 5 books published, I consider him something of an expert. He tells me about the 1950's and 60's movements, when rock-n-roll kids were troublesome, rebellious, leather and ragged demin wearing monsters. Later, the movements I followed, punk, new wave, and "death rock" were always outwardly subversive. Political or "Shocking" lyrics (Crass, Gang of Four, The Damned, Bauhaus) and extremely "apocalyptic" looks (pointy boots and black hair) were de rigeur. To be called "pop" was equivalent to death. It was worse, embarrassment. This is what I consider to be so interesting about this movement, it's niceness. Please, someone, explain this to me. Are the hugs, fuzzy sweaters, comeraderie with one's parents all a symbol of a greater cultural fear of the millenial unknown, or is this for real? I love the music, but I'd like to solve the mystery of the seemingly docile youth who follow it. Ciao, http://student-www.uchicago.edu/users/asbuch/index.htm#hometop Heather Marie Propes asbuch@midway.uchicago.edu +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ +---+ Brought to you by the Sinister mailing list +---+ To send to the list please mail "sinister@majordomo.net". To unsubscribe send "unsubscribe sinister" or "unsubscribe sinister-digest" to "majordomo@majordomo.net". For list archives and searching, list rules, FAQ, poor jokes etc, see http://www.majordomo.net/sinister +---+ "legion of bedroom saddo devotees" +---+ +-+ "the cardie wearing biscuit nibbling belle & sebastian list" +-+ +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ InetReceived: from gatekeeper.wmg.com by corp2.wmg.com via 207.142.212.98 with SMTP-TCP; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:00:18 EST InetReceived: from internalif.wmg.com ([207.142.212.97]) by gatekeeper.wmg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA29286 for <Anastasia_Signoretta@wmg.com>; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 12:52:09 -0500 (EST) InetReceived: from envy.ph.ed.ac.uk ([129.215.72.168]) by internalif.wmg.com via smtpd (for gatekeeper.wmg.com [207.142.212.98]) with SMTP; 4 Dec 1998 18:00:30 UT InetReceived: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by envy.ph.ed.ac.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA24559; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:59:35 GMT InetReceived: by envy.ph.ed.ac.uk (bulk_mailer v1.9); Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:59:21 +0000 InetReceived: (from majordomo@localhost) by envy.ph.ed.ac.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA24525 for sinister-outgoing; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:59:15 GMT InetReceived: from haven.uchicago.edu (root@haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by envy.ph.ed.ac.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA24520 for <sinister@majordomo.net>; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:59:08 GMT InetReceived: from midway.uchicago.edu (root@midway.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.12]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA04869 for <sinister@majordomo.net>; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:59:27 -0600 (CST) InetReceived: from harper.uchicago.edu (root@harper.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.7]) by midway.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id LAA16102 for <sinister@majordomo.net>; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:59:17 -0600 (CST) InetReceived: from localhost (12459@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harper.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id LAA09560 for <sinister@majordomo.net>; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:59:15 -0600 (CST) +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ +---+ Brought to you by the Sinister mailing list +---+ To send to the list please mail "sinister@majordomo.net". To unsubscribe send "unsubscribe sinister" or "unsubscribe sinister-digest" to "majordomo@majordomo.net". For list archives and searching, list rules, FAQ, poor jokes etc, see http://www.majordomo.net/sinister +---+ "legion of bedroom saddo devotees" +---+ +-+ "the cardie wearing biscuit nibbling belle & sebastian list" +-+ +----------------------------------------------------------------------+