On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Cory O'Malley wrote:

There appears to be rather a digression in the actuality of these themes within their respective musical subcultures. Far more kids were having sex in the fifties than were kids taking drugs in the sixties than were kids killing themselves in the seventies than were kids killing other people in the eighties.

My apologies for not responding sooner. I don't have an Internet connection at home, so whatever I write has to be written at work, quickly. Yes, I agree with your point here about the digression of experience. I think it can be seen on a wider social level (i.e. more than just youth culture). We've realized the destructiveness of so many experiences that used to be taken for granted (sex, drugs, etc) that by now we are just content to experience them by proxy (films, books, Internet).

I propose that kids have finally figured out that the danger of rock/roll is just so much facade.

I'm not so sure about this. One one level, it could be seen as facade, the teleological moment of "shocking" rock-n-roll are figures like G.G. Allin, Orlon(sp?), or Marilyn Manson - shock value for its own sake. Perhaps kids have seen through the shock effect to realize that the "shock" is a desperate attempt at attention that often comes without quality. But perhaps there is also a fear of the true danger of self-destruction and self-mutilation.

So, now, there exists a new subculture, comprised of kids who are concerned with "hugs, fuzzy sweaters, and camaraderie," as you have noted. As the notion of youthful outrageousness and derision toward older generations has become rather trite to certain groups of kids, these groups have sought rather to undermine the tired themes of rock/roll.

It is still a rebellion, of sorts, but a rather friendlier one, and aimed at a far more figurative and broader topic.

I agree with this. While the rebellion of past youth subcultures might have been expressed through example, today it is expressed more subtlely. Pop lyrics tell the stories of the kinds of lives and dangers that were formerly lived, in an ironic, literary way, and stop there. The focus of this music seems to be on the musical quality, the narrative, and the lyrics, rather than the demonstrative shockingness of a certain lifestyle. I think this emphasis on narrative lyrics is one example of the current tendency toward virtual experience rather than lived experience. One last question - "Rock-n-roll countercultures" of the past seemed to set themselves apart from mainstream culture not only for the satisfaction of attention-getting shock tactics, but also to protest the political status quo. Now, as with the element of "dangerous experiences", the element of overt political protest seems to be waning in "indiepop," (my apologies to those of you who disagree with the terms "indipop" or "pop", I am forced to categorize this music with one rather general word because I don't have time to come up with a truly appropriate description), although I would argue that political conditions in the world have gotten much worse. Could this be because, as with shock value, political protest in rock and roll seems to have grown trite and empty, and capitalism (and especially capitalism in rock n roll) seems to have grown so complex and intimidating that there is no way to fight against it without making a silly spectacle of oneself (you're gonna "sell out" anyway), or because of a sense of resignation to the world's problems, which are now so large that there is no point in protesting? Well, that's it for now. BTW - I had a particularly exciting weekend because I found "The Thrill of it All", the Roxy Music box set that I have been wishing for the past three years, used for $45. Ah, the thrill of it all, indeed! Ciao, Heather +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ +---+ Brought to you by the Sinister mailing list +---+ To send to the list please mail "sinister@majordomo.net". To unsubscribe send "unsubscribe sinister" or "unsubscribe sinister-digest" to "majordomo@majordomo.net". For list archives and searching, list rules, FAQ, poor jokes etc, see http://www.majordomo.net/sinister +---+ "legion of bedroom saddo devotees" +---+ +-+ "the cardie wearing biscuit nibbling belle & sebastian list" +-+ +----------------------------------------------------------------------+