David, I hope you and Katrina don't see this list as something that just gives you a load of shite: that's the last thing I (and I suspect the great majority of listees) would want. This discussion is necessarly about wider issues: pop ethics and how to behave. It is my perception that people, listees, are worried about damage being done to a list which is a genuine and important part of their (our) lives. Naturally they are going to want to talk about it. I don't think anyone really cares who set the list up first, or who 'owns' it: the issue isn't about ownership or some kind of seniority, it's about community. Communities tend to react rather strongly when individuals take action which is *perceived* to threaten the wider group. The thing is that Jeepster seem to be confusing the relationship which most sinisterines have with the list and with Belle and Sebastian, which I think tends to be deeply personal amd emotional and based in communal feelings, with the relationship we have with a record company, which is a purchaser / vendor relationship, based in the world of small-scale venture capital. Your argument seems to be that people should lay off you because you work hard at your job. Or should that be because you provide a 'good service' on a commercial basis, or because what you do stands on its own merits as a self-justifying good? I have to say that of all the things I've seen over the past few weeks, the thing I've been most taken aback by was Jeepster folk suggesting that the meet ups and suchlike were part of your job of work. If all that was a *job* to you, that makes me feel a little sick. Speaking for myself, I don't feel that the relationship I have had with this community can be seen in the context of a service provided on a commercial basis. This isn't some kind of focus group. There is a perception around and about that the new list will damage sinister through dilution, through cross-posting, whatever. For myself, I think it will probably be alright, in so far as it will make it clear to all that Sinister is not an arm of Jeepster, and things will be simpler. But you seem to be putting yourself in the position of a shop saying 'you might not like the service but it's been a good service up till now so you can't really complain'. Trouble is, sinister is not a service, it's a set of relationships and, as I understand it, some feel that the process of setting up another list is some sort of disloyalty. One doesn't expect loyalty from a shop. One does expect it from friends and fellow members of a community. I should repeat that I am not suggesting that setting up a 'rival' list was an act of disloyalty, but reading the reaction on the sinister list, it seems to have been perceived that way. Jeepster is a good record company (by this I mean it is a record company which releases records by a band I like and seems to give them a high degree of artistic freedom...)but it is fundamentally a record company and we can't be surprised when it behaves like the branch of small business capitalism that it undeniably is. Which means disregarding loyalty and community in search of the greater goal: the bottom line. A classic example is that David effectively said that Jeepster couldn't afford to allow the B&S list to be an arrangement which Jeepster could not control, was not accountable to them and so alternative arrangements had to be made. Fine, but (I repeat) that I believe the people on sinister do not perceive the list as a service, and do not have the same vested interest as you do if the service goes away for a few days. It's not a matter of being uninformed about the news if the list goes down, it's more like being isolated from your mates. I (for one)don't want that relationship confused with marketing. And maybe people are unhappy because setting up a second list seemed to suggest that someone at Jeepster didn't understand the difference. I also have to say that, if communicating with sinister people was the priority, then unsubbing the news list from sinister was a very strange thing to do. One last thing (and I know I'm going on): please don't take these conversations personally. It is not unreasonable to criticise a record company from the point of view of a fan. If I do that, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm criticising you personally. If I (or whoever) disagree in public with your position, that doesn't mean I'm having a go at you or giving you shite. Looking through the sinister archives, I see a fair number of messages slagging the idea of a new list (and some for the new list) but none slagging anyone on a personal basis. If it's impossible to slag off Jeepster (or the way Jeepster behaves) without someone at Jeepster taking umbrage, then there are naturally going to be bad feelings thrown up. For the record, I like everyone I have met from Jeepster very much, you all seem to work very hard and care deeply about what you do. That surely doesn't mean I have to shut up when I disagree with what Jeepster (as a corporate entity) does. My fear is that, in this instance, the difference between bathwater and baby may be passing someone by. regards Tim ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ +---+ Brought to you by the reborn Sinister mailing list +---+ To send to the list mail "sinister@majordomo.net". To unsubscribe send "unsubscribe sinister" or "unsubscribe sinister-digest" to "majordomo@majordomo.net". WWW: http://www.majordomo.net/sinister +-+ "legion of bedroom saddo devotees" "tech-heads and students" +-+ +-+ "the cardie wearing biscuit nibbling belle & sebastian list" +-+ +----------------------------------------------------------------------+