I sent this message once before but never received it, so I don't think it went through. Forgive me if anybody gets this twice. ***************************************************** While I think it is unfair to both bands to compare Belle & Sebastian to the Smiths, I must reply to the message below. THIS WILL NOT STAND! Morrissey said it himself: "Don't forget the songs that made you cry/And the songs that saved your life". It's easy to dismiss Morrissey as 'narcissistic' without acknowledging that any time a performer gets on a stage without a paper bag on his/her head, in one way or another they're asking that the spotlight be put on them. This is what P!O!P! is, if you're not going to accept that all pop is a cult of personality (besides faceless mechanical techno drivel) then I don't understand why you would take part in the very cult of personality that the Sinister list is. It's a double standard that completely undermines Joseph's argument. The Smiths got their start on an indie label, were staunchly anti-Thatcher, and are held up today by most as a shining example of an '80s band who did NOT personify their time. Billy Bragg, Mr. Red Wedge himself, was on TV a month ago singing the praises of the Smiths' politically conscious songs, and wishing they were still making new ones. I think that Joseph displays an attitude that is, ironically, much more 1980s than anything you could ever pin on the Smiths. This attitude seems to say that now that the novelty is gone, now that you're no longer a 16-year-old whose very existence is being validated by The Smiths, you can just toss them aside, they're of no use any more, forget about them. In reality, The Smiths were a perfect pop band, I would personally say the best ever, with beautiful music, sadness AND humor, and all of it was so full of hope for kindness and love in the world; any cynicism or spite in the music comes directly from the disappointment of that hope. As I've grown older, I've found nothing but more layers and depth to The Smiths' music. Pigeon-holing it as narcissistic and sad is just lazy, it's jumping on a bandwagon and not thinking for yourself, because any real listen to the Smiths music reveals a range that encompasses pure misery, pure joy, and anything in between. I remember a couple years ago when Luke Haines of the Auteurs/Black Box Recorder dismissed Morrissey, saying 'I don't really care about this man any more'. Now, I LOVE Luke Haines, think he's a genius (everybody go buy the new Auteurs single "The Rubettes" right now!), but when he said that he was revealing an embarrassing anxiety of influence. I refuse to believe that the Auteurs could be what they are without The Smiths being there first, and if The Smiths weren't spinning 'round on Stuart M's turntable, we may have had Belle & Sebastian, but I bet they'd sound a hell of a lot different without that influence. We all know Belle & Sebastian still love The Smiths, even covered 'Reel Around the Fountain', and I would assume most of us on the list wouldn't be so quick to discard them as Joseph is. I fully credit Morrissey for any interest I've ever had in pop music- he was one of the few public personalities who ever seemed really passionate about it, regardless of his sometimes narrow taste. He made it okay to find comfort in your record collection, when people have let you down. This may seem like narcissism or selfishness to some, but in so many ways it really did save my life. I hope I'm not the only one who jumps to the defense of this band. Though I certainly think Joseph has a right to his opinion, I think his arguments are completely baseless, to the point of being merely antagonistic. It worked. -Chris -----Original Message----- From: P68d6ern@aol.com To: sinister@Majordomo.net Sent: 6/28/99 1:56 PM Subject: Sinister: Proof that I have too much free time Hello All, Just this morning I was thinking about the comments people have made comparing the Smiths to Belle and Sebastian; I came to the conclusion that there is no comparison what so ever. I recently re-listened to some Smiths albums and I realized that they no-longer hold any importance for me at all (except as nostalgia), and the reason for this is the complete self-absorption of Morrissery's lyrics. As I 16 year old I was fascinated by songs such as HAND IN GLOVE, but now all I can say is, "who cares." Not to say that the song is bad (I do think that it is a good song), but the sentiment, the emphasis on the "me" did not appeal to me at all. Thus the difference with Belle and Sebastian (also the difference between 16 year old me and 30 year old me). Both the Smiths and B&S have lyrics that are "sad" but the lyrics of B&S songs seem to find comfort in this sadness; a "we all have bad times, but we will get over it" tone. And the characters in B&S songs are more sympathetic: the characters of Smiths songs, to me, seem to invite nothing but pity. Maybe this difference is due to the difference in the (look out, pretentious word alert) zeitgeist of the 80's and 90's. The 1980s was a time of every man and woman for his/herself; all was about making money and having more toys than the next person. The Smiths were seen as a reaction against this, but I feel that their self-absorption fits right in with this attitude (I know Morrissery was an advocate for animal rights, but this does not take away from the egotism of his music--I am talking about music only). B&S have a wider world view, a very 90's world view, where almost anyone is able to place themselves in the situations of B&S songs (emotional if not actual experience). Listening to a Smiths song one has the impression that every lyric is about Morrissery and his obsessions; listening to B&S one has the impression that they have a view that goes further than their nose. Another way for me to put this is to use an example of what some critic had said about the Beatles: the Beatles music and lyrics was seen as comforting, aurally wrapping their collective arms around the listener. I think that the music of B&S is similar because even though the songs may be sad, so many people (from what I have gathered from postings) listen to B&S and leave feeling better. One final point--the fans. Fans of the Smiths took on not only Morrissery's "attitude" but also his look. I remember hordes of teenagers dressing like Morrissery: the hair, the glasses, even the hearing aid. There was a cult of personality around Morrissery that does not exist with B&S, and this lack of a cult of personality around B&S is not only another difference from the Smiths, but is also a very good thing. Sorry this was so long, but I did try to condense my thoughts. I hope my point comes through. Regards, Joseph PS I noticed that my spell check says to replace "Morrissery" with "morosely"--just a concidence perhaps? +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ +---+ Brought to you by the reborn Sinister mailing list +---+ To send to the list mail "sinister@majordomo.net". To unsubscribe send "unsubscribe sinister" or "unsubscribe sinister-digest" to "majordomo@majordomo.net". WWW: http://www.majordomo.net/sinister +-+ "legion of bedroom saddo devotees" "tech-heads and students" +-+ +-+ "the cardie wearing biscuit nibbling belle & sebastian list" +-+ +-+ "jelly-filled danishes" +-+ +----------------------------------------------------------------------+