Sinister: Nyarko Ticks
Which is side one, and which side two, of Power, Corruption and Lies? I thought about making that a Freaky Trigger thread but it would have been a bit too specialized and would not have aided thread congestion. And for that matter why is 'Age of Consent' so called? And what *is* the type that you need to be told to tell you about the birds and the bees? And stuff. I have only just discovered that the Velvets' 'Who Loves The Sun' (shouldn't it have a question mark? If so, it can have the one from my henceforth redundant question) sounds, lyrically, like some kind of model for 'I Don't Believe In The Sun'. This raises the meta-question of Merritt's relation to the Velvets. My feeling is that he shouldn't like them too much, thanks to their amateurish formlessness. I hope someone writes in and says, - !hey, dirtsucker! the velvets wernt formle.s. or amaturish. I don't always agree with my editor, but watching Bacharach last night made me think that his ** very long-standing** argument that songwriters shouldn't sing their own material was, if not 'correct', then at least wise. In a sense I've thought this for a while - have I ever told him? - and this was just further confirmation. All of that is NOT a way of saying that Burt Bacharach is a bad singer who shouldn't be allowed to sing. He's a lot better than lots of other singers. I would LIKE to have 'Burt Bacharach Sings Burt Bacharach'. (In a sense perhaps it would sound like a covers LP.) No, it's just the creativity of distance - the extra level of complexity and play that you introduce by getting somebody else to sing your song - that I think is valuable here. I should have been able to assent to this long ago. I think it was my editor's declaration that 'The Beatles ruined everything' that spoiled it for me. Despite her sometimes dodgy views, I think the gal 'Julie' gives good mail. At least she responded in detail to 'Sugar World', citing paragraphs and stuff. Plus, she's feisty and fights her coin, I mean, her corner. But 1. What did she mean about 'embrace and filter'? These are very different things: virtually antithetical, one might say, in some contexts. 2. Looking at the cover of a magazine doesn't tell you what a band sounds like. (Unless the cover is written by Simon Reynolds.) I don't know what Destiny's Child look or sound like. I don't think they have much of a reputation or profile in my country. We have this silly band 'Sugababes' instead, see. 3. We don't have MTV where I come from. 4. To talk about Salman Rushdie was a nice touch - but have SR's pop-cultural admissions done him much good? I think my editor would disagree. He never liked SR that much in the first place, but what respect he had paled and palled once SR started expounding about very well-known Van Morrison records and the like. 5. Still, I like the near-synasthesia of 'knowledge is golden', green, etc. Julie is the Milly Bloom of ice cream studies. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ +---+ Brought to you by the Sinister mailing list +---+ To send to the list mail sinister@missprint.org. To unsubscribe send "unsubscribe sinister" or "unsubscribe sinister-digest" to majordomo@missprint.org. WWW: http://www.missprint.org/sinister +-+ "sinsietr is a bit freaky" - stuart david, looper +-+ +-+ "legion of bedroom saddo devotees" "peculiarly deranged fanbase" +-+ +-+ "pasty-faced vegan geeks... and we LOST!" - NME April 2000 +-+ +-+ "frighteningly named Sinister List organisation" - NME May 2000 +-+ +-+ Nee, nee mun pish, chan pai dee kwa +-+ +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Well, I just woke up and need to jet off to the library, but there is a fat man in my living room who wears vinyl pants and listens to the Beach Boys. So, while I'm waiting for him to leave, I can filibuster some more. Also, I thought it would be bad form to not respond after my piffle was expanded upon.
1. What did she mean about 'embrace and filter'? These are very different things: virtually antithetical, one might say, in some contexts.
I thought this was pretty obvious. There's going to come a time where we realize that, futuristic-movie-style, pop culture has crept into all corners of our lives and we can't really escape it without becoming total loser recluses. If you admit this, if you embrace it, then you can decide what's worth keeping and what's gotta be tossed. Remember when I said that chick in my class was not ironic? Irony is the key. There is no reason to not like top 40 pop music that is GOOD and AMUSING (ie Sugababes, Destiny's Child, and I have a personal penchant for A1 although the Norwegian one scares me) as well as the sad, sad indie music that makes your heart flutter and the corners of your mouth turn down. It's like the DDR/PUMP debate. I used to be a big fan of PF's beloved Magnetic Fields, I thought Stephin was super rad. I think Distant Plastic Trees is one of the saddest most beautiful albums I own. I think what turned me off of MF is 1) the fact that they've done the same show the last 5 or 6 times I've seen them and it's boring as FUCK and 2) the fact that they are really pretentious. And as you might have noticed, pretense leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The Three Terrors should be slapped about, going to see them last year was (as I've described it before) just watching three old pretentious men sing old pretentious songs and expect us to lick it all up. The only good thing was that Daniel Handler read from the Basic 8 and what a grate book that is!
2. Looking at the cover of a magazine doesn't tell you what a band sounds like. (Unless the cover is written by Simon Reynolds.) I don't know what Destiny's Child look or sound like. I don't think they have much of a reputation or profile in my country. We have this silly band 'Sugababes' instead, see.
No, it won't tell you what they sound like, but you didn't know one from the other, and this could help with embarrassing mishaps like that. Last fortnight's Smash Hits had Destiny's Child on the cover, nicely captioned "INSIDE THE SECRET WORLD OF DESTINY'S CHILD!" Sugababes have never appeared on the cover of Smash Hits. Also, you are absolutely wrong about Beyonce, Michelle, and Kelly not having a reputation in the UK, they are a GLOBAL PHENOMENON.
3. We don't have MTV where I come from.
You don't have cable? Oh I forgot, you can watch porn on Channel 4 there, who needs Showtime or even USA. You lucky bastards in the UK get the Box too, Smash Hits You Control! I only suggest watching it once every month or so, though, because it's the same videos all day long. But good videos, like the one where Westlife shake their tiny fists at the unfairness that is the heterosexual relationship while perched atop a scenic cliff (I know I've used that description before but it's SO ACCURATE!)!
4. To talk about Salman Rushdie was a nice touch - but have SR's pop-cultural admissions done him much good? I think my editor would disagree. He never liked SR that much in the first place, but what respect he had paled and palled once SR started expounding about very well-known Van Morrison records and the like.
That's true, I've heard that The Ground Beneath Her Feet is sort of mediocre compared to Salman's earlier "masterpieces". But like I said, he's alive. And dating a hot chick.
5. Still, I like the near-synasthesia of 'knowledge is golden', green, etc.
In girl scouts we used to sing this song: "Make new friends, but keep the old, one is silver and the other's gold!" This has nothing to do with what I was previously talking about, but is still a valid bit of wisdom. Thanks Gordon for the ice cream description compliment, I will never again question my abilities in this department. Everyone should join popbitch, www.popbitch.com, I think. Especially you PF, since you don't like pop you may as well get a newsletter that makes fun of it. Anyway, this is a conflict that may never be resolved, as those who are anti-pop music aren't easily swayed. And PF and I are from different generations and upbringings. At this point, I'd like to thank my mom and dad for buying me Rick Astley and Bangles tapes when I was in second grade. xoxo Julie +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ +---+ Brought to you by the Sinister mailing list +---+ To send to the list mail sinister@missprint.org. To unsubscribe send "unsubscribe sinister" or "unsubscribe sinister-digest" to majordomo@missprint.org. WWW: http://www.missprint.org/sinister +-+ "sinsietr is a bit freaky" - stuart david, looper +-+ +-+ "legion of bedroom saddo devotees" "peculiarly deranged fanbase" +-+ +-+ "pasty-faced vegan geeks... and we LOST!" - NME April 2000 +-+ +-+ "frighteningly named Sinister List organisation" - NME May 2000 +-+ +-+ Nee, nee mun pish, chan pai dee kwa +-+ +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Hey, this sugababes discussion is interesting. I think I'll take it as a starting point and end up somewhere competely different. Let's see.
I thought this was pretty obvious. There's going to come a time where we realize that, futuristic-movie-style, pop culture has crept into all corners of our lives and we can't really escape it without becoming total loser recluses.
I don't think so. Just randomly take one example among millions: me. I do have a television, but it's only capable of showing one single program, and it's not MTV. I also own a radio, but i never use it because all it does is getting on my nerves big time. The result of this reclusion is that i am unaware of a lot of things that most other people in my country know about, like who is most likely to win the next football championship, which local actor has married/divorced/whatever which other one, etc. (We have the Big Brother show here in Germany, too, and i've never seen that one either, which i think is only a very tiny little bit of a shame). Also I often don't know who is at the top of the charts here; sometimes i cause wonder and amazement when i hear a song played somewhere and say "wow, that's really catchy - I'm sure it's going to be a big success", when in fact it already is... I'm not a recluse, though. I'm reading daily and weekly newspapers, I'm using the internet a lot to keep myself informed about the things i care about, especially literature and music; I get my recommendations for new & interesting stuff from all sorts of mailing lists and message boards. Embrace and filter? I'd say, the big advantage of the internet is that you don't have to embrace; you can start filtering right away. But, I hear you say, are you not missing out on a lot of things? Well yes, I guess so - for some time i vaguely thought that Destiny's Child was a metal band because the name sounds a bit medievally-pretentious like Paradise Lost or Blind Guardian...... but then I listened to them, and I was utterly unimpressed. And while there *is* some good mainstream pop music (Briskeby! they're fab. From Norway), it's just not worthwhile IMO to wade through all this crap just to find something that *might* be a bit good. (I do miss MTV sometimes, though. Some of those videos are really good. Especially those with half-naked dancers). The thing about ignoring mass-media-pop-culture is that it makes life better; at least for me. I didn't consciously choose to step out of it, it just happened, and it was good. It's strange how people have this idea that pop culture is something unescapable that's got some *meaning* unto its own. In fact, you just have to do a tiny little step to the side, and it all vanishes, you can let this this multi-billion-$$-life-invading industry rush you by like a high-speed train: *whoooosh*. Ok, it's very easy to appear arrogant when you have a different taste. But I don't think i'm *better* just because i don't do or like what most people do. I don't *hate* bad music, i just don't listen to it. Julie, you seem to think that people who are "against" pop music do so because they want to feel superior or something, when secretly they envy those who are out and have space-age fun. I don't think that's the case. It's just that some people don't find it worthwile to spend time with that sort of music, that's all. There is no earthly reason why you *have* to know a certain band, there is no such thing as a GLOBAL PHENOMENON. For me, caring about DC would be a waste of time. That's not arrogant, it's simply economic. It gives me time to enjoy the things i love. And if you happen to enjoy DC, there's nothing wrong with that either, of course. But: people who don't want to take part in global pop culture, not even ironically, are not sad loser recluses. At least not always*. bonus comment: I had heard the expression "spirit ditch" in a sparklehorse song and thought it was one of their genius lyrical inventions (in fact, they are using it twice on their last record), until Jules enlightened me about the fact that it's a normal english expression. Wow, what a language! I think I'm in love. I should learn it sometime.... back to lurking for the next 6 months goes Jan *: I'm with a hot chick. In fact, I'm going to cuddle next to her after i've sent this out and maybe fumble her tits for a bit. -- Tindersticks page: http://www.tinder.org "Lifestyle music for people maybe lacking in life, but never, ever in style" -- +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ +---+ Brought to you by the Sinister mailing list +---+ To send to the list mail sinister@missprint.org. To unsubscribe send "unsubscribe sinister" or "unsubscribe sinister-digest" to majordomo@missprint.org. WWW: http://www.missprint.org/sinister +-+ "sinsietr is a bit freaky" - stuart david, looper +-+ +-+ "legion of bedroom saddo devotees" "peculiarly deranged fanbase" +-+ +-+ "pasty-faced vegan geeks... and we LOST!" - NME April 2000 +-+ +-+ "frighteningly named Sinister List organisation" - NME May 2000 +-+ +-+ Nee, nee mun pish, chan pai dee kwa +-+ +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Hey, I go out drinking, come home and you're having one of my favourite drunken discussions. Jan:
The thing about ignoring mass-media-pop-culture is that it makes life better; at least for me.
I'm glad you added that qualifier. Lots of people obviously feel very differently. To take one random example: me. But ...
I didn't consciously choose to step out of it, it just happened, and it was good. It's strange how people have this idea that pop culture is something unescapable that's got some *meaning* unto its own. In fact, you just have to do a tiny little step to the side, and it all vanishes, you can let this this multi-billion-$$-life-invading industry rush you by like a high-speed train: *whoooosh*.
... I don't think it's like that, really. Just as there aren't simple GLOBAL PHENOMENA, there isn't a single monolithic "mass-media-pop-culture" that one step will allow you to avoid. Its presence is no more or less meaningful in itself than that of any other cultural product, and they're frequently implicated in each other. It wouldn't take a great deal of analysis to uncover the links between the massmediamachine and whatever culture it is that you like, be it newspapers, literature, "other" music, etc: you follow the $$, the producers, the consumers, the influences and so on. I suspect that in fact you do "embrace and filter", you just filter differently to, say, Julie - but so does everybody else. Even the prepubescent girls who are continually being blamed, bizarrely, for "bad" music (etc) tend to have quite strong opinions about what they filter out. Conversely, of course, the great thing about comparing Destiny's Child, Sugababes, New Order and Ms du Pre is that you don't actually have to choose.
Ok, it's very easy to appear arrogant when you have a different taste. But I don't think i'm *better* just because i don't do or like what most people do. I don't *hate* bad music, i just don't listen to it.
Well, you see, that's just it - if you snuck a closer look at the masses out there you'd probably find that everyone's complex set of tastes is different. You might not believe the people I spotted on Oxford St the other day queuing up to have their Donny Osmond cds signed. I do hate bad music, I'm just not sure I can always identify it. That's one of the other great things about pop: you don't have to care about it to appreciate it. Sometimes it just works anyway. I'm too drunk to think about whether this applies to other cultural products. Anyway, this should be an embarrassing story, but I spent weeks vaguely ignoring that boring Samantha Mumba tune that was in the charts recently. Then yesterday I was in the pub, a tune came on, I liked it - it made me feel happy, I smiled and thought that everything was good, just for a moment. Then I wondered what the music was that was playing, and seconds later I recognised it as, of course, that "boring" S Mumba tune. I felt silly but I still enjoyed it. I'm not going to buy the record because I'll probably hate it again if I play it at home, but that doesn't mean it can't have been good at that moment I heard it. I suppose this is why I don't *entirely* buy the argument about economics of enjoyment. While I wouldn't suggest watching daytime TV every day instead of, say, reading poetry, sometimes spontaneity is fun. PF, your editor sounds like one of those mysterious "companion"s with garrulous opinions that restaurant reviewers seem to have. I suspect that Rushdie's dallying with U2 resulted in more sales gained to their fans than lost to dismayed admirers, which was probably (along with the midlifecrisis of Never Having Been In A Rock Band) the point of the excercise. PF:
Julie is the Milly Bloom of ice cream studies. So who is the Molly Bloom of ice cream studies, or am I being thick?
Forgive me for I know not what I witter on about. Maybe I should do an introduction: I used to be on Sinister years ago, back in the dark ages before the terrible arguments, and didn't write very much. It's embarrassing to look back at my old little replies & daft poem in the archive, which of course I did when I rediscovered Sinister. I possibly wrote in once some time in 1999 as well. So I resubscribed a while ago and read intermittently. Anyway, recently I seem to be reading all your messages so I thought I should break my silence, and like I said I've been drinking, which helps the nerves. cheers D +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ +---+ Brought to you by the Sinister mailing list +---+ To send to the list mail sinister@missprint.org. To unsubscribe send "unsubscribe sinister" or "unsubscribe sinister-digest" to majordomo@missprint.org. WWW: http://www.missprint.org/sinister +-+ "sinsietr is a bit freaky" - stuart david, looper +-+ +-+ "legion of bedroom saddo devotees" "peculiarly deranged fanbase" +-+ +-+ "pasty-faced vegan geeks... and we LOST!" - NME April 2000 +-+ +-+ "frighteningly named Sinister List organisation" - NME May 2000 +-+ +-+ Nee, nee mun pish, chan pai dee kwa +-+ +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
participants (4)
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Jan Imgrund -
Julie -
P F