You're going to all have to forgive me if it takes a little while to respond properly to Seb's allegations: there's just too much to correct off the cuff and too much damage that could be done. For those of you who've kept faith with this list, I'd ask, if it's possible, that you wait a little while, and at least some of you give me the benefit of the doubt that the whole thrust of this is untrue: I know some will and others won't, and I don't expect anyone to blindly trust. I'm just steaming mad that this sort of allegation could be fired at the list and me without checking with sources first, although I know this presents a problem of who to trust. But this mails bears a remarkable similarity to other sources who seem to want to spread such crap about the list, and, hell try and finish it off. I've never really quite understood why and it's completely exhausting. I'm feeling extremely beleagured by the whole thing, and beginning to think that this time it might be fatal, and those people will get what they want. I don't include Seb in any of that, but I do blame him for passing on rumour from wholly unreliable sources: but in the end it's up to him. All I can say for now is that this "other list" was never EVER an unelected body, a covert secret council, and never made ONE damn decision on what content or people should be on the list: it was a distribution list of friends who I sometimes asked for an opinion on list matters, and in NO WAY did this fluctuating set of friends ever have, or believe they had, any say on where the list went and what should be on it. We all have collections of friends who, bless them, lend a listening ear when we don't know what to do; to represent that friendship as a participation in so me sort of hidden list executive seems to me to be either ignorance and/or scheming. Nor was it ever even a social list, as anyone who I mailed will agree that I *specifically* asked those who agreed to lend me an ear not to talk social and dilute the joy of all our minglings on Sinister itself. I know that this rumour has been spread around recently and forcefully by those who seem to have become less than friends of Sinister, the same people who used to participate keenly in such discussions. I don't ever quite know why but I guess they're rejoicing now. If the whole sordid story of just who's been trying to do what to this list has to come out because of all this, then so it will, and with fire and brimstone. I've always been keenly aware, that the existence of such a distribution list, while wholly innocent of the claims now made about its fiddling with democracy, could be misrepresented by an enemy as something malign. It seems some people are intent on doing this and this has become apparent in the last few weeks: it's a matter of on record that I could see this coming when I heard of the muck-spreading and shut down the distribution list two weeks ago to try and protect the list and the people who'd listened to my ramblings. Maybe it was always too risky a thing to set up all along, for which I take the blame, or maybe I underestimated the depths to which some people would sink. Let me say it as clearly as I can for those who want to listen though: this is plain wrong, and I have always been responsible for what happens on this list, full stop. If you want to shout at anyone about list policy, shout at me. If you hate this list, tell me. If you want list policy changed kick my door down. But don't go thinking there's a secret talking shop behind your backs, because it isn't DAMN well true, and it makes me so angry to hear this used as a weapon. I know some of you won't want to hear this, and won't have cause to believe me, but I hope a few will. It's also worth saying that if we're going to discuss the existence of forums like this, that joining Sinister is a choice: there are plenty of other forums, and we've seen the rise of a completely unmoderated one today, the newsgroup, which does nothing but increase the choice available to you all of the places you want to live. But I can promise you, that for those who chose to join Sinister because it was a managed list, it's always been managed by one person, me, and no-one else. I'm not sure what else I can say to this. Finally, I've always tried to discourage people talking about the list ON the list, but I can see that any authority I have for saying that is questionable under this sort of extreme allegation, so I don't know how to appeal to people's better nature; but most of you have kept good faith remarkably over long periods of trouble this list has had. All I can really do is say: talk about it however you see fit on the list, but please have some sense of the audience out there, and how long and scrappy those conversations should be. Ill health and exhaustion with all things list-y might mean you'll need a little patience and I'm really really sorry for that, because I know where my responsibilities to you all lie. honey +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ +---+ Brought to you by the reborn Sinister mailing list +---+ To send to the list mail "sinister@majordomo.net". To unsubscribe send "unsubscribe sinister" or "unsubscribe sinister-digest" to "majordomo@majordomo.net". WWW: http://www.majordomo.net/sinister +-+ "legion of bedroom saddo devotees" "tech-heads and students" +-+ +-+ "the cardie wearing biscuit nibbling belle & sebastian list" +-+ +-+ "jelly-filled danishes" +-+ +----------------------------------------------------------------------+